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Talk:T'vaoan
Merging with Kig-Yar Based on the Reclassify discussion and the distinction between the Skirmishers and the Jackals provided by Bungie, it appears that the Skirmisher is simply a different variant of the Kig-Yar species, thus treated as a race rather than a sub-species, and that the Jackal is the more common Kig-Yar race encountered throughout the Halo franchise. With that said, the Kig-Yar article should have sections dedicated to these two races which details the physical and behavioural differences, how they differ from one another in actual combat and how they were integrated into a common unit after the event of Reach. Note that the description confirms that the Skirmisher is not a rank within the Kig-Yar Rank Structure. I am with you. If we are going to not merge this then we need to make a new page for Human male and Human FemaleGogeta21 23:36, April 27, 2010 (UTC)!!!!!!! Voting Support - As per above.- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 12:55, February 17, 2010 (UTC) - As per above. --Nerfherder1428 21:54, February 17, 2010 (UTC) - You're opposing arguments are, without hoping to offend you, not legitimate. They are just a subspecies or breed or race of Kig-Yar. I'm not sure if that means the Kig-Yar are both races or not. Making this a separate article is somewhat, frankly, ignorant. The term "Skirmisher" isn't the name of their role but of their race. That's like making a separate article for Caucasians or Latinos under humanity. If the Skirmishers had a special rank, (ie. "Brawler" or something) I would agree. But as it is, the Skirmishers are just a race of Kig-Yar. I don't know if this means that a "Jackal" is a different race too, but both Jackals and Skirmishers are well and perfectly Kig-Yar. (Don't believe? See "FULL NAME" of the Skirmishers here) I didn't mean to shun any of your beliefs, I apologize if I did, but all I am saying is that your arguments for opposition are not accurate. Sorry! --Fluffball Gato 23:29, March 9, 2010 (UTC) : You're hiding behind "legitimacy" against commonsense logic. The Skirmishers, although they share the same species name as Jackals, are very different in appearance, behavior, and most importantly (as this is an encyclopedia of a video game-based universe) gameplay behavior. That merits them getting their own article. I don't know why you think that a rank would deserve an article but a subspecies would not. You're drawing an imaginary line there, but in reality, a Skirmisher is not a Jackal, and should have its own page separate from the Jackal. Furthermore, since you're trying to be technical with your argument, I'll be technical right back: a race and a subspecies are NOT the same thing, as has been argued probably five times on this page. But the point is - never mind whatever vocab words you're using (race? subspecies? legitimacy and accuracy?), a Skirmisher is a different thing from a Jackal and deserves a separate page. Flayer92 03:19, May 3, 2010 (UTC) I'm sorry but I have to disagree on that. I agree with everything you say except when you say that this is an encyclopedia for the Video Game. It is not. In fact I have friends who use this Wikia and don't even play the games! Also. I have friends that are very interested in the books. And when I asked them if they are excited for Halo 3: ODST the said "they made a Halo video game?!". And as Bungie has said on their forum. "We know people who have never even heard of the books, games, and comics and they only watch the show. We know people who have never heard of the books, games, and show and they have only read the comics etc.". And as Star Wars said "in an infinite Halo universe. Anything is possible". So the game is only one teeny-tiny part of the "Haloverse"!Gogeta21 18:48, May 3, 2010 (UTC)!!!!!!!!!! :But the Skirmisher only appears in a game. - As per my comment/reply given to failing Gruntijackal.外国人(7alk) 18:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC) - If we don't, Africans, Chinese, British, Koreans, etc. all deserve their own article.Lekgolo 20:21, February 20, 2010 (UTC) :Don't they? Considering cultural heritage, society etc? Warhead xTEAMx 21:12, February 20, 2010 (UTC) : No, they really don't, because they have nothing to do with Halo. Skirmishers do. 21:55, April 7, 2010 (UTC) I never actually checked....Lekgolo 22:24, February 21, 2010 (UTC) Neutral I think that, since they are the same species, the Skirmishers should have their own section in the Kig-Yar article, detailing differences between the more common Jackal etc. However, Bungie has stated this: "Skirmisher: The Jackal and Skirmisher are of the same species, with the larger, more heavily muscled specimens comprising grenadier-type units (Skirmishers) and the smaller, more lightly built specimens seeing deployment as dedicated ranger or sniper units (Jackals). This is a significant change from engagements prior to 2530 when mixed units were more common.". Because the Skrimishers are given a specific role in battle, and are a dedicated unit, they should be given their own article, but still be featured in the Kig-Yar article. Perhaps the Kig-Yar article should be changed to feature the Kig-Yar as a species, with sections depicting the physiology of the Jackels and the Skirmishers, as well as the difference between the two, and then made a dedicated article for the Jackals and the Skirmishers, which featured more than their physiology, such as role in combat, ways to fight, tactics used by the two etc. Warhead xTEAMx 14:09, February 20, 2010 (UTC) Oppose - Halo:Reach has not come out yet and we have a dearth of pre-release information regarding the Skirmisher as such, so I think it's too early to make this kind of call, as new information could force us to re-separate the articles. Until we get more information on their society, history, and bodily makeup, I'd say it's too early.[[User:Tuckerscreator|'Tuckerscreator']] 05:23, February 18, 2010 (UTC) - Its a Sub-species, like Neanderthal are to Homo Sapien, but we do not merge the two races because they have their differences. ::Obviously your biology knowledge is beneath everyone who discussed in the previous section. >.> ::Neanderthals are considered a sub-species because of many reasons; mainly of their bone structure and genetic makeup. The Skirmishers however, do not have such things as only their appearances (Those feathers might just be a helmet) have been altered. This is like saying Skirmishers and Jackals are two races of the Kig-Yar species just like how the Chinese and the British are two races of the human species (homo sapiens). With that said, your opposition fails epically.外国人(7alk) 18:08, February 18, 2010 (UTC) :::Actually British and Chinese are nationalities not races. --Jaguartalon 06:45, February 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::I know, I just laughed to myself at that statement. --Fluffball Gato 07:24, March 14, 2010 (UTC) - As per above. And above that. - Scot 113 16:52, February 18, 2010 (UTC) - They are different enough to get their own article, surely. Oh, and Subtank -Ascension-: Homo neanderthalensis isn't considered a sub-species of Homo Sapiens, but as one of the numerous branches of Homo Erectus, which Sapiens also originates from (This makes the two "cousins" is a taxonomical sense). "Race" is a meaningless term in genetics, as the difference in DNA between anyone is 1% (no matter who they are), thus you and Subtank are two different races because you are two different people.-- Forerun ' 20:39, February 18, 2010 (UTC) :I don't think Subtank said anything about Homo Sapiens. But whatever. You apparently don't understand that Bungie has already stated that both Jackals and Skirmishers are the SAME species: Kig-Yar. Whichever way you want to put it, they are one species. There are no sub-species, or cousins, or anything. By definition, that makes them two breeds/races. Period. It doesn't matter if one has seven legs. Bungie has stated it is a Kig-Yar and we're going to have to move it on the Kig-Yar page. If we want to instead make the Kig-Yar page link to two articles on the races (Jackal and Skirmisher...and we don't) then whatever. But neither race is superior enough to hog the page to themselves. :And you're technically wrong Forerunner. Though race may be nearly impossible by today's standards to derive strictly from the genotype of an organism, it has almost everything to do with standard Mendelian genetics and heredity (observing the pheotype that results from said DNA). As heredity and the links between Jackals and Skirmishers is actually what we're talking about right now, your statement of irrelevance is, in itself, irrelevent. =D --Nerfherder1428 22:11, February 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Show me the source. --[[User:cally99117|'7h3 Ma573r Chi3f]] [[User talk:cally99117|'(5par7an 117)']] 12:39, March 28, 2010 (UTC) :::*sigh* Straight from Bungie.net: http://www.bungie.net/projects/reach/article.aspx?ucc=enemies&cid=24609. Let's check our facts before we all run in to the room kicking and screaming our opinions at each other.--Nerfherder1428 22:27, April 12, 2010 (UTC) ::::But we have to wait until most of the users here know alot about Halo Reach (about 2011). Oh and Subtank don't just merge it right away because your an admin that voted for it, so don't merge it until we have enough evidence. ----> [[User:Cally99117|'Master']] [[User talk:Cally99117|'Chief']] (Personal Favorite). 16:50, April 14, 2010 (UTC) Forerunner - Get it right it is Homo Sapien Neaderthalensis, ''and ''Homo Sapien Sapiens. ''Thus they are both subspiecies, or cousins of each other. Nerfherder1428 - You are right, they are both Kig-Yar, but it could be like what I said to Forerunner. It could be Kig-Yar (something) for Jackals, and Kig-Yar (something else) for skirmishers. Also like what shade said, we should wait for mor information, because if we find out that us who belive that they are cousins are right, then we will have to waste time reseparating them. There is far to many other projects to waste time on a preemptive correction that in the end could be wrong. -- A random know it all Halo fan : Way too early to do so. We should wait until the game comes out, ''then we could study them more.--'Shade' 16:47, February 20, 2010 (UTC) - They are nothing like the Jackals. And if you merge this page I will request a merge on Mgalekgolo to Lekgolo, SAND TARP to Sandtrap, Pit Stop to The Pit, Boundless to Snowbound and Epilouge to Epitaph. [[User:cally99117|'7h3 Ma573r Chi3f']] [[User talk:cally99117|'(5par7an 117)']] 16:41, March 27, 2010 (UTC) - Never mind whether or not it is a sub-species. It is very distinctive in appearance, behavior, and gameplay role to the standard Jackal. Remember also that we have separate pages for the Lekgolo and the Mgalekgolo, and even more damning, separate articles for each form of the Flood, although they are all technically part of the same species. People searching for information on the Skirmisher should NOT be redirected to information on Jackals. It's asinine to compare this to having separate articles on different races of humanity. This is a HALO Wiki, and in the Halo games and universe, there isn't a significant difference between blacks and whites in overall role, for example, but there is clearly a very large difference between plain vanilla Jackals and the Skirmisher sub-race. Flayer92 18:41, April 7, 2010 (UTC) :Just like you said if this can be merged then why not those pages said above? And maps like SAND TARP are just baisicly the same map with differences. [[User:Cally99117|'Master']] [[User talk:Cally99117|'Chief']] ([[Unggoy|'Personal Favorite']]). 19:04, April 7, 2010 (UTC) :: Because it strikes me as just a really stupid idea. This is a Halo wiki. The purpose is to go in depth on Halo topics. In Halo gameplay, a Skirmisher is very different from a Jackal and so it deserves its own page. I don't think people should have to go tab down to the bottom of the Jackal article to find information on them. If combat ranks of Jackals are notable enough to each have their own page, then certainly a subspecies deserves one too. Saying the Skirmisher page should be merged into the Jackal one is like saying the ODST page should be merged into the Marines page. 21:53, April 7, 2010 (UTC) - I sort of agree, but then again, the Skirmisher is very different from normal Jackals in a lot of ways. It may not be a different rank, but they obviously behave and look very different from the more commonly seen Kig-yar. In my opinion, the Kig-Yar article should have a subsection for the Skirmisher race detailing the racial differences but the way I see the Skirmisher, as an enemy, is basically similar to a different role, much like Kig-Yar Majors or Kig-Yar Snipers. True, those are officially called "ranks" while the Skirmisher isn't, but simply because they are so different in appearance, behavior and tactics I think their role is synonymous to a different "rank". Like Flayer92 above said, it's not really about the being a different race or not, but their radically different gameplay role as an enemy. --Jugus (Talk | ) 14:57, February 17, 2010 (UTC) Merge with Kig-Yar? (CLOSED) I understand that this is a new and exciting addition and all, but I don't think it should have its own page. According to Bungie.net, the Skirmisher is still a Kig-Yar. If this is to be separate, we should split up "Banshee" and "Heretic Banshee" again.--Fluffball Gato 03:00, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :Someone should also clarify to whether this is an actual sub-species or just a race...外国人(7alk) 03:42, February 15, 2010 (UTC) Support Oppose :Even if it's not a different subspecies, the Skirmishers fill a different role than regular Kig-Yar. We still have articles for different roles and ranks like Kig-Yar Ranger, Kig-Yar Sniper, Kig-Yar Minor, etc. Thus, this deserves its own article even if it isn't a different species.--Jugus (Talk | ) 06:31, February 15, 2010 (UTC) :Per Jugus, different rank and role than other Kig-Yar. ''Field'' ''Master'' Spartansniper4 16:20, February 17, 2010 (UTC) :Per Jugus; that's the most solid reasoning I've seen on this page. Untitled. Luckily, Fluffball Gato made it a Title. I actually don't think they look that much different from regular Kig-Yar. They're bodies are obviously the same with heads that seem more similar to H3 jackals than anything. They do seem to have shorter snouts and maybe sharper teeth, but not by much. The noticeable difference lies in the bushy, feather protrusions on their head rather than the traditional spines. Does anyone think this is more of a racial, regional thing more than an entirely different species? Nerfherder1428 00:03, January 15, 2010 (UTC) :"Cousins of the jackal" suggests they are further apart than just racial. Either the Skirmisher is a subspecies of Kig-yar, or they are species within a genus. Think of it like cousins of humanity. The nearest is Homo Sapiens Idaltu, while another close cousin is the Neanderthal.-- Forerun ''' 00:20, January 15, 2010 (UTC) We've always known that jackals had a bird like structure and probably evolved from something like a large bird. I think the skirmisher is a less intelligent, less evolved, and more aggressive version of the Jackals. The fact that they are much more like a bird just shows thet. Maybe they aren't extinct and are actually just a Covanant light infantry version of the Brutes. FatalSnipe117 21:09, January 25, 2010 (UTC) Oooh, a new Covenant species! I'm eager to learn about their background and civilization (If they have one). I think we really overlook the fact that they're COUSINS of the Kig-Yar. I want to know how two intelligent races are able to co-exist and evolve alongside each other on the same planet. Are they economic like the Kig-Yar? Are they completely extinct, or just their troops? Think of it like this; What if Chimps were intelligent and lived alongside humans? Introducing a new species of Covenant with an unknown background is major, especially since we've never heard about them. If we had heard about them, I'd expect it to be in the novel "Halo: The Fall of Reach" or "The Cole Protocol" if anything. -Manzaross, the unoffical official Halologist I'm excited too, Manzaross! If I had to guess, I'd say that they have a warlike, tribal culture and are much more aggressive than the Kig-Yar, but we'll see. I'm also interested to see how they fit into the Covenant hierarchy. The Elites are still my faves though! -User:Webspidrman 1 February 2010 (UTC) Is it just me, or do they look like monster chicken-dinosaurs on steroids? H91 20:40, January 28, 2010 (UTC) I think they look like velociraptors from Jurassic Park 3, you know with the feathers on top of the head, snout, muscularity, color, they work in packs for crying out loud! SalemElliot 20:22, January 30, 2010 (UTC) Weapons? I did not see them holding any wepons in the picture. :You can see a blurry outline of the Type-25 DE Pistol. ehhh the skirmishers look differnt i meen u can definitly see the resebleince but still they also look like dinos in a way :Well considering they are "Cousins" of the Kig-yar race, they could be a less evolved race considering their appearance and they prefer CQB style fighting which is something mostly any Jackal would avoid against a SPARTAN-II or a SPARTAN-III. This could explain the Carbine-Needler hybrid which in my opinion, is a crude hybrid the Skirmishers created to better suite their own purpose and since this design could be against the Covenant Heirarchy, The Prophets would banned this (not saying its canon, just saying). If you read about the Brute Spiker, you would see a small hint of my piont. The Brutes created the Spiker as their own crude invention but the only reason why I think it wasn't banned is because the Prophets would not want their own army of Brutes to berserk against them. Also please watch your spelling and sign your posts.--ASEC 03:14, January 29, 2010 (UTC) They are actually shown in recent screenshots that they are weilding Plasma Pistols and Needlers. '''Halo 111777 Skirmishers wiped out I doubt that they where wipped out but I do think that the Covenant kept them held back to help protect the Kig-Yar home world. Massacer. It says in the article Bungie hinted that by the end of the battle of Reach the skirmishers were wiped out can anyone find proof of this such as a forum post a recent video interview or maybe something out of gameinformer, and if not it should be removed. Xxxjeffxxx 01:48, January 25, 2010 (UTC) I found where they said it but I'm not very good at editing I have the link could someone put it where it needs to go. http://www.edge-online.com/features/halo-reach-tales-of-the-fall Xxxjeffxxx 05:45, January 25, 2010 (UTC) They also mention this in the newly released article from Gamereactor , and even though Bungie did need to come up with a reason for not having them in any other games does anyone think it makes little sense that every single one was killed off at Reach? I would imagine there had to be some somewhere else at the time.Kalicokaiju 22:37, January 25, 2010 (UTC) POssible that a cataclysmic event happened at hom, destroying them, and thus leaving those on reach as the last ones. Or, they might be newcomers to the covenant, and seceded? ~Enlightment~ ~Fighting Vandalism and Watching Unregistereds~ 08:00, January 27, 2010 (UTC) I think the implication is that almost all Skirmishers were used at Reach, and that the process of its fall saw them wiped out by humanity's spirited defence. -- Administrator Specops306 - Qur'a 'Morhek 12:09, January 27, 2010 (UTC) That's one way of putting it, "spirited" lol. What I could never understand was why the covenant seemed to find it easier to smash through earths defences, then reach, even though earth has even stronger defences? you'd think covenant losses would be catistrophic, but they don't appear to be. ~Enlightment~ ~Fighting Vandalism and Watching Unregistereds~ 13:21, January 27, 2010 (UTC) :The Fall of Reach happened before the Covenant made their way to Earth.Warhead xTEAMx 12:29, February 17, 2010 (UTC) It is logical that the femals and children of them are on theire homeworld Eyan so only the entire skirmisher troops are wiped out. DP I think that maybe the Skirmishers have a much smaller population than the Jackals, hence why they haven't been seen so far. They're rare and they're saved as special military units for the most crucial operations. If the Skirmisher units were small and saved until Reach, they might have suffered such heavy casualties that they weren't suitable for deployment again and still rebuilding their losses at the time of the Halo, Earth, and Ark battles. Flayer92 04:00, February 1, 2010 (UTC) Spartan 2095 22:11, February 1, 2010 (UTC) Well, my guess is that they weren't wiped out. Some may have escaped Reach and there were prolly some still on Eayn or travelling the stars as pirates, considering the race. I agree with Flayer92 there would be way to many for them to be wiped out even at a huge battle like Reach.Disciple of the Covenant 22:17, February 1, 2010 (UTC) I think that, as the above statement by Flayer92, that all the Skirmishers were deployed, however I think that as they haven't appeared after it, they might thought that the losses was so heavy that they didn't wanna be in The Covenant anymore, and that they left, and later turned to their ways of piracy. As the Jackals, and presumably the Skirmishers were mercenaries, I guess they didn't agree with the Covenant religion, so it's not hard to imagine they left, altough this is just specualtions. H91 19:40, February 23, 2010 (UTC) Doubtful that the Covenant would ever let them leave like that. If they turned against them than the Covenant would wipe them out, same way they did the Heretics. If the military units of Skirmishers were decimated than they'd probably just be trying to recover afterwards and not go into battle, and the war only lasts a couple more years, so it's logical they wouldn't have enough time to be ready for action again. Also, has anyone considered the fact that these guys might have actually been in a lot of the battles in the past? Maybe there were no human survivors in the battles they'd fought in before, so there would be no reports of them existing yet. And if there were any, maybe ONI assumed people were getting confused and were really just talking about Jackals. Sub-Species? Based on the quote above, it seems that the Kig-yar species is composed of two race; the Jackals and the Skirmishers. With that said, they are not really sub-species. It is more of a differentiation in physical traits between the two Kig-yar races. Take us, humans, for example. Each race (Chinese, German, Indian, etc) has different physical traits... which lead to several stereotypes... anyway, what do you think?- 5əb'7aŋk(7alk) 02:16, January 29, 2010 (UTC) it's actually true, they are the same race, bungie said it, the pages for Skirmishers and Jackals should be merged 17:22, January 29, 2010 (UTC) I agree, it should be merged and the sub-species factor be noted on the Kig-yar page --[[w:c:halo:User:Lordofmonsterisland|<